Listen to learn how to best communicate to kids about internet safety and how we can approach kids after an incident has occurred.
"A lot of people don't realize, kids are smart! They know how to get around these controls that are in place. So the more informed you are as a caregiver, the more you can keep an eye on things that are going on with your kids and that they are getting the right information and aren't going to negative places."
The internet is a vast and often dangerous place. With increasing threat actors prying to target these vulnerable young ones, protecting our kid's from harmful places online is crucial to keep them safe and secure.
Teressa Gehrke (Founder and CEO of PopCykol) sits down with Host and Principal Security Analyst Jen Stone (MCIS, CISSP, CISA, QSA) to discuss how we can prevent our kids from finding out the hard way the dangers of the internet.
Listen to learn:
Resources:
Visit https://www.popcykol.com/ to learn more.
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Download our Guide to HIPAA Compliance! - https://www.securitymetrics.com/lp/hipaa/hipaa-guide
[Disclaimer] Before implementing any policies or procedures you hear about on this or any other episodes, make sure to talk to your legal department, IT department, and any other department assisting with your data security and compliance efforts.
Hello and welcome back to the SecurityMetrics podcast. My name is Jen Stone. I'm a principal security analyst here at SecurityMetrics. Today, I have a guest who's gonna talk to us about keeping kids safe online.
It's a very important topic. I know we usually talk about, technical things or compliance things, but a lot of the listeners, of the show are parents or caregivers, people who, know parents or caregivers. So if you have a a friend or or a loved one who might find value in this, recording, please share it with them. Teressa Gehrke is the CEO of Popsicle, which is protecting our precious curious kids online, a cybersecurity awareness company for kids and their caregivers.
Popsicle incorporates fun engaging content that educates kids of all ages. Live and animated videos bring to life cybersecurity awareness concepts.
Award winning kids music and videos inform kids how to be smart and safe online. Caregivers will also enjoy the relatable content. A little bit about Teresa. She has a BA in anthropology and art history from the University of Denver, an MA in anthropology and international development from Colorado State University, studied computer network technology and network security at Arapahoe Community College.
She is a cyber security professional with over ten years developing high quality technical dom documentation, well traveled, and anthropologist with a focus on culture, inclusion, and diversity, and researched in Haiti.
Project manager of boutique clientele in cybersecurity IT and telecommunications and creator of the dark shiny unicorn blog illustrating the connection between cybersecurity and anthropology.
She's an, an award winning children's music artist, singer, songwriter, and enjoys stand up paddle boarding, coaching lacrosse, and is a black belt in Taekwondo.
Teresa, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Did I miss anything on that about your company or about you?
No. That was really good.
Well, I wanna know what led you to create Popsicle.
So this is a kind of an interesting story, and, it's because of my son, actually. So he's ten, and he figured out how to hack his phone.
And he he saw me enter the pin of his cell phone, and, he knew, like, three out of the four numbers and kinda deduced what the last number was. And so he figured it out, and I was brushing my teeth one one night, and I could hear him downstairs, you know, laughing. And I'm like, what? I just tucked him in. So what is happening? So I go downstairs, and he's got his earbuds in, and he is watching YouTube videos. And I was, like, furious.
So that was one. And then kind of the next thing after that was that he figured out how to bypass the security monitoring system from his school and was able to do searches and watch YouTube videos, without us really seeing what he was doing in the monitoring app. So he was very clever. He was very sneaky, and that's how Popsicle came to me.
Nice. Well and a lot of people don't realize that kids are smart. They'll get around these, controls that are in place. And so the more informed you are as a caregiver, the more you can keep an eye on things that are that are going on with your kids and make sure that they're they're getting the right information, online. They're not going to places that are are going to be negative for them.
Tell me, tell me about the mission of Popsicle.
Well, really, the mission is in the name Popsicle, protecting our precious, curious kids online. And that really is the goal of the company.
Okay. So, how does it help kids? How does it help their parents, grandparents, caregiver? How does it help, with with the the mission of the the company?
So my goal is to inform kids and also show kids, and we talk about a wide variety of different cybersecurity topics. So I don't want to shy away from any particular topic. I wanna be able to discuss kind of foundational cybersecurity topics like cyberbullying or passwords or MFA, but also talk about the difficult topics, for, like, the older kids. So that might be cyber stalking or revenge porn or even human trafficking. They need to be able to know that those things exist and that there's a real cost and consequence to the people that you fraternize with online.
Alright. Well, so I see that that Popsicle has, some some very cute, mascots, three penguins. Tell me about these penguins. Who are they? What are their names? How do they help?
Yeah. So it they're not just part of, like, the logo. They actually have personalities. They have characteristics, and they are the storytellers of cybersecurity topics.
So there's a male penguin named Spicy, and he's really not interested in cybersecurity. He doesn't wanna do the right things. He's really pouty, and he gets easily annoyed. And then there's Sweets, and she is, like, the very kind, very curious penguin, and she wants to do the right thing.
She doesn't know all there is to know about cybersecurity, and so she's in a kind of constant state of learning.
And then Savvy is the penguin who, like she's the leader. She knows everything there is to know about cybersecurity, and she wants to teach spicy and sweets how to do things right, online. So I kinda see that as a is as a spectrum of all of us.
So I think you one could argue that a lot of people are a spicy character Mhmm.
And that we're all trying to lean towards a sweets character.
And we might know how to build a password, but maybe we don't know all of the, ins and outs of it and how to, really strengthen it by using, like, multi factor authentication or something like that. So in a constant state of learning.
That's a great way to be. And it's having a, a mind that is open to learning the next thing even if you know part of a thing. It I think that is a benefit. No matter how much you know in cybersecurity, it's always changing. There's always more to know. And the thing the threats are always evolving.
So I love the characters that that you've chosen for that.
So what sets Popsicle apart from other cybersecurity awareness companies?
I think it has to do with my passion.
So I love the idea that I can bring kind of all the best parts of myself to to Popsicle.
So it's not just about cybersecurity.
I really wanna focus on that human aspect of cybersecurity.
As a children's music singer, songwriter, artist, I'm also creating a really fun engaging content, that includes the the music and the design. And I have a wonderful, animator who helps me design all the content, and everything's really well branded.
So, thinking about culture and the human experience with the anthropology and cybersecurity and bringing kind of that whimsy to it really sets Popsicle apart.
Nice. So, you mentioned schoolwork earlier. What are some of the some of maybe the top issues you've seen related to online schoolwork?
So what I can say is it it comes from my experience as a single mom. So my son remote learned.
So we would constantly have to tell him, you know, turn your camera on.
You're you're being distracted.
There's like you see like a screen of like thirty kids online, you know, like, they're all kind of doing their own thing, so they were easily distracted.
And there's a lot of, like, wrangling going on. And then, just teaching them, like, good etiquette online. So, you know, maybe not looking at the screen, looking at the camera, or having their having the little screen slider camera slider, open. Right? The teacher would always have to say, you know, turn on your camera, turn on your camera.
Another one would be, the cyberbullying. There would be times when I would look at his chat and I'd be like, these are like fourth grade kids. So why are they being so mean online or just saying really nasty things? So the fact that they maybe don't understand that we can see everything that they're doing.
There are ways to monitor that. The teacher can see it. Parents can see it. The school district can see it.
And them not understanding, kind of those parameters of online behavior.
And, I think, at least for us, there was some amount of, like, dishonesty in completing your schoolwork. Like, did you finish that assignment? Yeah, mommy. I'm like, did you really though?
Okay. I'll go check. I'm like, alright. Alright.
So, you know, having to check schoolwork as well.
Right. That the online bullying, that's a it's part of a broader issue that, it's disconcerting to see how people treat each other.
But I think it it has more to do with, it doesn't feel real. Feels like you can say something and there's no consequences. It feels like you can be hurtful without consequences. We see this all the time with between adults who have, you know, say negative comments or post negative things thinking that that that there is not something, real about what they're doing. And I like the idea that if we if we address that earlier, younger, and help people understand these are real people in these, on the other end of this chat, it's not just, some kind of a fictional something that you would never say some of these things in real life too.
Yeah. And and last month, I I was a teacher. I was an instructor at Arapahoe Community College, and I I did cyber camps, and I did the cybersecurity portion of a STEM camp. And in one of the cyber camps, I I asked the kids because kind of one of that one of the topics we we discussed was online, you know, social media and cyberbullying.
And I'm like, raise your hand if you've been cyberbullied. And most of them raised their hand. And I was like but I thought to myself, what if I kind of flip the script? I'm like, who who's honest enough to admit that they've cyberbullied it? And nobody. Nobody.
Wanna raise it.
They did they did no. So it was kind of like an interesting experiment. Like, yeah, I've done it, but have I done it back? I think you could see on their faces that some probably have.
And, you know, there's kind of, like, this look of guilt or a look of shame. So teaching that, like, that's not okay.
You know? That way you and the stories that people told me were like, oh, gosh. That's I wouldn't have expected that kind of behavior from, like, maybe a friend. But somehow times, your friend or your best friend really knows where you're vulnerable. I mean, that happened to me in high school. I remember having a friend who moved out of town, and then she came back without even telling me that she was coming back and moving back to Colorado.
And I we caught up with each other in a bathroom, and I was like, oh, this person's back in town. And she's like, hey. Do you still like that boy? And I was like it was one of those days where we we had been flirting, and I was like, yeah.
She's like, oh, yeah. He's a good kisser.
Oh.
And I I was just like, go for the sauce pot. Infer from that what she meant.
And a lot of times, people will will act out of their own insecurities and put you to put you on your back foot, and and it's something that people learn from a very young age. But as parents and caregivers, if we are more engaged in the communication that's happening, and we know what chats are happening, we know what, messages are being sent back and forth, then we can address those earlier and help people understand the real implications of of the words that they're flinging into the Ethernet.
Tell me, back to schoolwork, our kid you've said that your son was getting around some of the, safety protocols that that parents, educators thought were in place. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Yeah.
So my son had actually shared a document with me so I could, you know, edit it for him.
And so I just happened to go back to my Google Drive and because I was doing work, and he had shared it with a work account. So I go into my Google Drive, and I see the document that he shared with me, but layered on top of the thumbnail of his, document he shared with me was a little smaller thumbnail of a video, which I knew he had been watching because I had caught him other times watching these really inappropriate videos. It wasn't anything sexual. He's, like, ten. But it's not something I would ever deem appropriate. And so I clicked on the thumbnail and could see that he was watching this kinda scary, you know, video.
And so he was busted. But then I could look at the app and not see that he had been searching for this video or watching the video. So then I did a little bit more investigation and saw that he could and Google, you can do it in Google form. You can do it in a Google document or a Google presentation.
You can embed or insert videos and and other things in search without the app actually seeing what's happening.
So that clued me in, and then I I went to technical support for our school district and said, are there other settings that we can we can, enable so that he doesn't do x, y, and z? And they really had to think about that. So then it it went up the kind of chain of command to other IT other, you know, IT professionals and directors. And so then I started having that conversation with them, like, this is what my son is doing.
And then I took my camera, my phone camera, and I, recorded exactly how he's doing it. So I know that what I did as a parent will affect some kind of change of web web filtering and searching, for the next school year because this had happened, like, in May. So he was he was very clever. I call him sneaky for a reason.
So that sounds like a challenge for the school district IT. I mean, or for a parent who's trying to implement any of these controls at home, really knowing taking the time to educate yourself and find out what are the ways that kids can, seek out and and view things without your security controls being able to catch them.
And that's not that's that's not easy, for anyone, much less much less apparent. But I know that there's tools out there where people can rely on to to get to it. But but regardless of what, tools, a school system or, educator or a parent uses or caregiver, it's a good exercise to go through and say, if I were trying to get past this, what would I do? Or searching online, what are other people doing to get around this?
Because, typically, I mean, kids might find a way around it by themselves. But, typically, somebody else has already posted. Here's how you get around this. And then they just have to go do a search and then follow the instructions, and then there they're at.
But, fortunately, if if they have the instructions for it, then then so to do you, and then you can find ways to to address it. Once you know about it, if you don't know what's happening, then then how how do you address it?
And the thing is when we started with remote learning, he was, sitting in the office next to me. And he would still figure out how to do these searches and do things, you know. I I could look over his shoulder and look at his computer, and then I realized he's still doing the thing we always call it the thing Mhmm.
That I don't want him to do.
And then I had him sitting next to me, and he would still do the thing.
And and so, you know, it's very hard as a parent, and I don't wanna be like a helicopter parent. I don't I don't want to have to have to supervise all the time. That that's not fun for me as a parent. I wanna be able to trust my son. Unfortunately, because of some of his behavior, I don't.
Not to the extent that I would like to. Right?
And him being an elementary school, there's not this kind of idea of cheating yet. But as you get into that tween middle school age and, and and high school, then you have to think about the cheating aspect and plagiarism and stuff like that. And, you know, I've have I've I've spoken to high school students, and they are cheating online. And they've have figured out how to, like, message each other and share stuff. And so, you know, the person who loses out the most is really the student.
You know, it might seem like a really good shortcut or work around But then they lack Ultimately, it it really does not benefit you to do that.
You should want to learn the material. Even if it's boring, there's a reason for it.
Right. Yep. Exactly.
And then kind of a related thing is is not even necessarily I don't trust my child, so I need to keep an eye on him. But also, there are some there are some evil people online. And children, younger and younger every year are being fooled into, activities that take them down a dark path as a mother of daughters. Let me talk about one that is, common enough that that caregivers online should know about.
And it's where, a child is fooled into putting inappropriate pictures of themselves, sending to someone, or putting it online. And then that person reveals that they're a bad person and they're gonna share it with everybody. And they're gonna hurt their families with it. They're gonna they're gonna take this information and just destroy their lives and their families' lives with it.
And children are not prepared intellectually or emotionally to deal with the kind of pressure that they, are subjected to from these types of activities.
And and the the one thing that can really help them is, do they have a parent or adult in their lives that they can go and talk to, that there's open communication, who is actively already talking to them about these things so that they can help figure out how to solve this problem. And it's not all left on the child. But this is hard. Like, this is uncomfortable.
It's uncomfortable for me as an adult to talk to the to you as an adult about it. And I've had kids I've talked to about it. Right? This is so this is, this is not a a an easier, comfortable topic.
So so what do you what do you suggest? How do you recommend people get, more comfortable getting involved with the school, with their kids, with their you know, these these online situations. How do we how do we gain that comfort level?
That's a great question.
I mean, when I when I say I wanna talk about these really difficult topics like cyber stalking or reward revenge porn, I feel uncomfortable talking talking about it.
It's not kind of in my wheelhouse.
Yeah. You know, that this is a thing that is actually happening or it some of this has this has not happened to me, but but we have to have those really open, honest discussions.
And for parents to to either ignore it because and think that it's not happening is a problem or know of it but not know what to do is also a problem. So I think that's maybe where Popsicle can pick up the slack. Right?
Because I again, I'd I'd like I said earlier, I don't wanna shy away from these really difficult topics. Sure. And the thing that I love most about the cybersecurity culture or and and our our tribe is that if I don't know something, I can always ask someone who does know. So I do some volunteerism with their knowledge that deals with cyber stalking. And so I know that there's a group of people that I can go get those honest answers from or, you know, I there's ways for me to research. I I love to read and write, so I'm doing that anyway.
But you have to take the time. Like, the consequence, right, is, like, that kind of, like, idea of ransomware. Like, you don't yeah. I don't if you don't pay me or you don't do this thing, I will then send this out.
Like, one of my favorite cybersecurity topics is cyber coercion. I just I don't know. I really get jazzed about it. But this idea that I'm gonna do something bad against you, we have to say to ourselves as a parent, what is the what is how does this outweigh me teaching them a an honest topic about revenge porn or cyber stalking versus the consequence of something gets out that's really inappropriate.
Right.
I'd rather have that front end conversation about, cyberbullying or identity theft now even when they're little because we know that the little ones are getting targeted because they have a whole long history that, you know, a bad bad actor can, utilize.
So I think you just I don't wanna say bite the bullet, but you just have to say to yourself, this far outweighs the consequence of them being exposed in any form, you know, in any form. So I'm just gonna have the conversation. But where do you start that conversation?
Well, hopefully, you can start it by going to our our website at some point, and then there will be content about that. Right?
Right. Yeah. I'm so glad that you're putting that out there. And and and as a parent, you know that this is going to be an uncomfortable conversation, and your kid is not gonna wanna have it with you. So it's gonna be it's gonna suck all the way around, but it's so important.
It's the the the positive outcomes from from just like you said, I think bite the bullet's the way to do it. You you just go in and recognize you're doing a hard thing, and your child is also doing a hard thing. I've heard of of parents who get angry at the child for falling for these things and getting pressured into into sending more and more inappropriate pictures, for example, once they get caught up in a in a negative situation.
But if the if the child is afraid to talk to you because of your reactions, then you've already lost. And so, hopefully, education, like you said, by going to Popsicle and finding out more information. And then and then if you still don't feel like you're up to this conversation, there are other people in the community who can help prepare you for the conversation.
Parenting's really hard.
And and I fostered my son for two years before I adopted him. So I had to deal with kind of the foster care system and the bureaucracy of that, and that was incredibly challenging.
And, I've gotten a lot of parenting skills through, being in the foster care system and, lot we we we do lots of therapy. I won't go into that, but I've gotten a lot of extra, skills through being a foster parent and an adoptive parent.
And I think I'm a lot better geared to parenting than a lot of people who just maybe had one, like, and didn't Guess what?
Shut up.
Give some of this extra, you know, all these extra resources. Right? So in some ways, I feel like I'm I'm better prepared than a lot of parents, but this is just this is not an easy job.
And they're being raised in a an environment where there's just so much more content for them to access.
I was thinking about my high school experience. I'm like, I I don't remember their bank at Internet or very little. I don't think I had email until my freshman year in college at DU.
And so I So part of it is comparing our experience to their experience is going to give us inaccurate information.
And so really recognizing the extent of of information they have available to them and what we need to do. We we didn't have that model for us because that's not that was not our experience.
And so, Popsicle is a great organize I mean, just so grateful that you're that you're doing this to help, parents who who don't have the knowledge because they didn't go through it themselves, in order to to help our kids, really stay safe online. So what I would love to hear next is what can we expect from Popsicle in the future?
Oh, so much. So if you were to go to, like, my Instagram or my Twitter, I'm one of the things I'm really trying to do is brand well the different kinds of content that I'm creating.
So I have content for littles. I have content for tweens. I have content for teens, and I have content for adults, and everything's color coded. So if you just if you've got it like a four or five year old, you can go to, like, the lime colored posts and just, you know, get, like, the really simple, tip.
Right? Or the really, simple video. So my whole thing is my guiding North Star is to make the message short and simple and accurate. That's the thing that is guiding popsicle.
So I think of it as, you know, because I I'm a singer songwriter.
I think of it as, can my content be consumed in less than three minutes?
So I have videos on my Popsicle YouTube channel that are longer than that because this is a learning process. I'm only a few months into Popsicle.
But as I'm kind of thinking about what I really wanna share, like, the message needs to be short and sweet and simple and accurate.
That's beautiful.
So the things that are kind of on the horizon are so Monday, I'm going back to the recording studio. I'm working with a vocal coach to help me do voiceovers because my voice tends to, like, get really strained after, like, an hour of singing. It's just it's done. And so I have, I was going to do these learning videos, but creating the videos is very labor intensive. And my feeling is that the curriculums that I put out online will be easier to create because I already have the scripts written.
They'll be easier to create. They'll be timely, and, I can put them out a lot sooner. And all I need to do is go into the recording studio and record the voiceovers. So, that's one thing. So I've I am planning on there being a password curriculum that you can purchase online through our website, for October's National Cybersecurity Awareness Month. So that is my goal. So, I'm very excited about that.
I'm also, you know, creating more music. I'm, you know, just kinda converting the scripts that I had. There was one for passwords, multi factor authentication, cyberbullying, netiquette, and catfishing.
Excellent topics.
I just kinda I've just kinda gotta convert those into curriculum.
Sure. If people are excited about what you're doing, is is are there other ways that we can support Popsicle?
Yes.
Absolutely.
So there's a number of ways that people can support Popsicle.
First of all, thank you for having me on here because you you're helping me spread the word. So sharing is really important to to helping kids online.
So, you can go to my website, which is popsicle dot com. That's p o p c y k o l dot com. I have all the social media platforms. You can connect with Popsicle on there. You can subscribe to my YouTube channel.
You can now give to Popsicle. So I had done a poll on LinkedIn and wanted to get, like, a feeler of, like, would you like some swag with the fundraiser? Do you wanna just, give to, the mission of Popsicle? So you can now do that on my website at the support page.
And you can also, when you give, you're you're directly helping me create that media content. So that's booking time in the recording studio, creating the background music for the videos and the password curriculums or curriculums in general, working with my designer, hiring her, and and building that content. So, that's all really helpful.
The other thing you can do is you can book me. So I have that available. So I'm doing a presentation in a few weeks for a football team, a youth football team around Netiquette and online social media privacy. I'm doing another presentation, later in August for a professional organization, of adults, on open source intelligence and, corporate protection.
And then I'm also you can also help Popsicle, see here.
Booking. Oh, the taste testers, which is kind of the interesting part of this is that you can volunteer to be a taste tester. And, essentially, that is someone who is going to provide feedback on upcoming unreleased media content. So it's kinda like a focus group or focus individual so we can have one on one conversations, and that's where I get to use that anthropology too.
Like, it's really important for me to not just put out content and think that you'll just love everything I'm gonna put out. I really wanna get your feedback and and comments on, do you like this music? Do you like where we're going with this content? Do you do you feel like, this particular curriculum addressed what multifactor authentication is for you?
So I want people to be able to to help me from that standpoint.
Excellent. What so many good ways to get engaged with what you're doing and support, a really, meaningful purpose. So I really appreciate you coming and talking to me, Theresa. This has been really, interesting, for me and I hope that that our listeners found it interesting as well.
Thank you so much, Jen. I really appreciate your time and having me on. Alright. You take care.
We'll talk to you again later.
Thank you.
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